Approaches to Email Marketing

This episode is a fast-and-loose overrview of various approaches to email marketing.

Liston and I start with describing the 3 forms of value creation that email marketing can be based on, and then move on to defining 5 sub-genres and the tradeoffs they each make among those 3 forms of value creation.

Our notes from this episode, including links to the email lists we discuss:

Full Transcript


This transcript was made by robots, so it's far from perfect.

Liston Witherill
Welcome to offline, a podcast about building a 100% online and remote expertise driven business without the bullshit, posted remotely by me, Liston Witherill. And me,

Philip Morgan
Philip Morgan, you'll learn how we're building our businesses, what scares the shit out of it, and hear from our friends and experts who are building their own businesses to welcome to offline.

Liston Witherill
Phil Morgan,

Philip Morgan
listen, Witherill you have found a piece of podcast recording software that makes my life so much easier. I thank you for this.

Liston Witherill
Well, like all things in my life, I am driven to make your life easier. So I'm glad that we succeeded.

Philip Morgan
It's good to have both a 510 15 and 20 year plan for your life, which is making my life easier. I really appreciate that. I know, that's how you answer interview questions back when you interviewed for jobs. What's your five year plan? Oh, it's to make Philips life easier. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Liston Witherill
You know, I think if a lot of people were to be honest, during a job interview, they'd answer, what's my five year plan not to be here to have a better job than this? You know, let's keep it real for a second. And of course, you can't do that.

Philip Morgan
It does defy a one or two conventions about job interviews, that's for sure.

Liston Witherill
Yeah, it's kind of funny. Well, we have a lot to cover today. So we should probably jump into and I just want to give a little bit of background here. So you came on client con. Last Thursday, we're recording this on Monday, September 28 2020. You were on on Thursday, and you talked about how to write more. And you gave a very specific prescription about how to do that. And part of your recommendation is to publish regularly to an email list and email those folks. And predictably, we got a bunch of questions about like, isn't publishing daily or three times a week too much? Won't people unsubscribe? How do I build an audience like this? And you were kind and so as I, which is a rarity for me. But we didn't say, you know, I think you're missing the point. The point isn't to grow a giant audience is to develop expertise. But maybe that isn't the goal of everybody in terms of how they would approach email. So today, we want to bring you and fill up this is your brainchild, different approaches to email marketing, each with its own merits and reasons behind it.

Philip Morgan
Yeah, I. So continuing on from the story, you began just adding a few more details that I think are relevant. So the day after that, that client cut that sort of peak moment in the first week of client con, there may be additional peak moments, but I wouldn't count on it. Listen, I wouldn't either. So that peak moment when I mounted the digital stage and gave my talk. The next day I did a ti talk, which is a part of this series of 18 talks I'm doing that are meant to create a curriculum for the expertise incubator framework. And I got some questions from the chat after that talk. And one question was, what do you think about? Oh, let me interrupt myself. In that installment of this talk series that I'm doing. I was presenting some examples of folks who are daily emailers, 10 examples of people who publish daily, you know, three times a week or more. And one of the questions afterwards was what do you think about the emails of folks like Rhinebeck, and they named one or two other people who are sort of direct response marketers, they tend to fit into that genre. And I stumbled my way through the answer, doing a fair bit of thinking out loud. And then I got to this point of clarity that brought some things together. So that's what we're going to talk about today. The point of clarity is for me was, there are three, there are basically three ways that you can create value by sending emails to a group of people. And the first is that you create value for your readers or subscribers. The second is that you create monetary value in the short term for your business. I love how you put a sub bullet under my bullet and said selling shit. That's kind of what that

Liston Witherill
are. Yeah, and I think it is worth acknowledging and I think this was some of the pushback that we were sensing on the call the client contact, which is, hey, the reason we're doing all this marketing is to impact revenue in some way. So when does that come in? And I think a lot of people were sort of getting antsy to answer that.

Philip Morgan
Yeah, and You know, I think we'll elaborate on this as we go, that is a completely valid purpose for email marketing. And in fact, I think that's the context in which email marketing is considered. So frequently, it's, it's considered superior in terms of like an ROI and effectiveness metric is considered Imperial superior, just like social media marketing, and blah, blah, blah, you always have these, you know, once a year, these reports that come out that are like surveys and studies of what's been performing best for you, what are you going to do more of an email marketing always comes out towards the top of those lists, if not at the top. So I think it's, it's really common to approach it from that context of how's it going to sell me Help me sell stuff, and that's perfectly valid. But there's a third form of value creation, that sending emails to a list can have which is it can be a form of creating long term expertise value for you, the solo expert. And it does that by serving as a way that you can think and work out your ideas through writing in public. And you can investigate areas of risk and uncertainty for your clients through your writing. So the moment of clarity for me was that there's the three forms of value creation reader subscriber value, you know, you help them see things differently, you teach them something, you give them a moment of enjoyment, distraction, there's a lot of ways you can create reader subscriber value. And then there's a short term monetary value for your business. And then there's this long term expertise value. And so I think I can argue that any form of email marketing is simply a different trade off between those three forms of value. And the thing that might be unique about the expertise incubators that I so heavily emphasize that third form of value creation, which is the long term expertise, value creation. But there are other trade offs. And I, we've spent some time before this recording, grouping them into sort of sub genres, if you will, with cutesy names. I've been talking too long. Let me really shut up and and let's hear from you, like,

Liston Witherill
descriptive names, actually.

Philip Morgan
But go ahead. Yes. Well, I want to I feel like I'm getting into a monologue here. And I don't mean to.

Liston Witherill
Am I supposed to tee these up? I don't

Philip Morgan
know. Do you think I should?

Liston Witherill
Well, I mean, yeah, why don't you because the these are, I guess this was a shared creation in the last 10 minutes, but

Philip Morgan
you have these inside your head for the last weeks. This is not an exhaustive list. I think it's useful, though, to have a sort of a short list of different sub genres of email marketing. And here's why I think it's useful. I said this in my client con talk. And I meant it. I think we all have something some sort of formative experience, where we first encountered what some what some other person with expertise, or charisma, or just a really great writing style, what they were doing with their email marketing. And we saw that we were like, Wow, that's amazing. I want to do that. Mm hmm. Did you have anything like that list in some sort of formative experience where you're like, you first came across someone's email list? And you're like, this is so great. I want to tune in every time they email or I didn't know you could do this in the format of email. This is so crazy. I'm curious, and maybe not. But I just want to pause and ask,

Liston Witherill
boy, that is a hard question, because I've read way too many email newsletters, and I've unsubscribed from almost all of them. I think yours and Jonathan Starks are two of the few that I read on a regular basis. I'd actually I'll take that back. Ben Thompson, okay, is one person whose emails I find excellent. Ryan, holidays, emails are very good. But the two of them don't have a lot of business crossover because they're writing essentially long form essays. And their delivery mechanism for the essay is email. So it's not not totally relevant to our audience. I don't know if that changes anything. There is, um, what was the first blog where, you know, if you kind of search your memory banks have like your first like, online person that you you sort of followed? Probably Andrew Warner mixergy, I would say, and then probably Joanna Wiebe, shortly after that, and I'm Have no idea how I found her. Let's go through? And how did he? How did following him create value for you, you as a sort of a consumer of what he was doing? I mean, you know, that's a very wise question. I think the value creation was in one, he was having conversations with people who were in positions that I wanted to be in. And so it was sort of like a walk in their footsteps kind of feeling. Or like draft in their lane, right, these people have already made a bunch of mistakes. Side note, it would be interesting to know how many people were on mixer gn are now out of business and working somewhere else. I'd be curious about that. But also, I think he asked a lot of questions about the emotional or personal side of business, okay. And that was super helpful for me also, because they were almost uniformly people, the honest ones are like, I didn't know if this, this was gonna work. And, you know, I had a young family. And it was super stressful. And I had several nervous breakdowns, and it sort of it felt very much more relatable. And of course, you could call me a masochist for pursuing this after I learned that so many people had felt this way. But at the same time, it felt like, I wasn't alone. And that was super helpful.

Philip Morgan
Okay, so there's a changed mental state, you had new ideas, you new knowledge, and it changed emotional state, in that you felt less alone, you felt like Oh, the, these are the people of whom one day I will be a member. You know, this is a sort of group that I'm getting a preview of other ways to, but that's certainly one of two of the ways that this created value for you. So how it created monetary value for him, we can speculate, you probably know, because I think you met him later and know a little bit more about his business than I do. Anyway, that's a certain trade off, like, maybe Andrew was learning as he spoke to these people. But he's, his interviews are so polished. And I know that he would do the kind of preparation. That meant that there probably weren't very many surprises while he was actually doing the interviews. So we might think of him as the curator that we've identified here. you typed it in as the ultimate curator. And in the world of email, or publishing a blog that you can also consume through email. There is a bunch out there, but we've listed azima czar, who, as he says, convenes exponential view. I'll try to make sure there's links to this stuff in the show notes, the morning brew, or the hustle, Tyler Cowen. three examples of people who are creating reader value, perhaps short term monetary value for their business, perhaps long term expertise value by curating. How do you read any of these lists? And do you read anything? That's a curated thing? And how does that create value for you?

Liston Witherill
So I've read the hustle for sure. Which I mostly like, but after a while, I'm sort of like, I don't know, I prefer a longer form, I just find, maybe they would say the point of our newsletter is to tell you what you should be paying more attention to, but I'm positive when I say that that's probably not the net effect on the average reader. So yeah, I like longer form stuff. Tyler stuff I've read, but I prefer his podcast again, longer form. That's my style of content that I prefer. So yeah, and then there's another one. There's a substack newsletter that I'm blanking on, but all find it if I can go to library Oh, and they're starting to hide as as canceled culture becomes more and more threatening, they're no longer acting as people who direct traffic to sites. I actually bought this directly. Anyway, they have a newsletter where it's like, you know, five things I found this week, or today, in every day, it's like, videos and podcasts and articles and stuff that they find that are just cool and like, you know, generally fairly Intellectual?

Philip Morgan
Yeah, I wonder if we could, we could put James clear on two of these lists because he's sort of transitioned from those sort of long form stuff you're talking about, to a more short forum. Here's some, you know, things for this week. So, to me, that's interesting. Maybe he saw that fit to make a case to kind of shift the way he was creating subscriber value, or he felt like what he was doing, wasn't creating long term expertise value for him, or he just got busy or got tired or who knows. It's interesting

Liston Witherill
to say, I think the rash the probably outcomes razor explanation is, his book did so well that he was like, I don't really need to, like nurture this email list anymore. It's just growing so fast that as long as I stay in touch with them in some capacity, I'll be doing my job.

Philip Morgan
Yeah, I think that's perfectly fine. Like the role of email can shift over time. There's another one come from sub spec, big by Matt Stoller.

Liston Witherill
Oh, yeah, I like that newsletter, I read that.

Philip Morgan
It's an interesting sort of like, it'll have a longer treatment of one thing, and then a sort of curated short form, kind of bullet lists treatment of something else, that's one we should put, because it is it more or less a curated thing. So the next category is what I call the news surfer. And I don't think we have time to go into depth on this. It's a really interesting sort of sub genre of people who have a point of view, like a way of seeing things a particular lens, they see the world through. And they aim that lens at a river of news that moves past them. And when I do a talk about this, I'll have a an animated GIF of a kayak like a stunt kayak, surfing a static wave in a river. And I don't know that everyone has seen this, I haven't seen any, like up close and personal. But you'll you'll have these certain rivers that are just like that, you know, flood stage, they have a massive amount of water flowing through. And then the whitewater section of the river will have places where the water forms a wave. But unlike in the ocean is not moving up or down the river, it's just there. And it's formed by you know, the rocks and the river channel and just the movement of this massive amount of water. So if you're a good kayaker, and you have one of these little tiny, like stunt kayaks, you can surf that wave, just like a surfer would surf an ocean wave. And you can do little tricks and flips. And that's what I imagined when I think of Ben Thompson and Steph Curry, Dan Evans, and this guy, Kevin hillstream, who I can elaborate on in a moment. I think of them as surfing a little kayak, that's their point of view. And the river of news is providing a constant novelty for them to surf their kayak against it's not like a textbook, where you're saying these are the concepts, these are the ideas, and then here's some examples, sort of retrospectively oriented examples. Yeah, they are they always have new material, because this river of news is presenting them with ever new material that for them to comment on and interpret for their audience through the lens of their point of view.

Liston Witherill
Well, and I think you then the news portion of it doesn't just serve to give them new fodder to sort of deal with and dismantle and, you know, look at from multiple angles. But I think you can't tell the story without acknowledging that. The news provides the platform for readership and interest. Right. So when Facebook makes an announcement that they're going to cancel political ads, which will never happen, by the way. Scott Galloway has a great piece on this and maybe we can add him to this list. But when Facebook announces that people are interested in getting analysts take on it, right. And that's that provides a major groundswell for interest in struts, hackery or Ben Evans newsletter or no mercy, no malice, Scott Galloway's newsletter, so sort of de facto, they're piggybacking on something that people already care about. And then there's another layer, as you say, have a real strong, sort of normative This is the way things should be or this, you know, this is how we can interpret this thing that happened.

Philip Morgan
That's a great point. Yeah, cuz if they didn't have that, they would sort of be that curator of like, Well, you know, here's other people's takes on it, or here's what they would be writing a summary, but they wouldn't be providing that other thing, which is Oh, no need to know what Ben Thompson thinks about this? Because he helps me make sense of the developments in or, you know, I need to know what Scott Galloway thinks about this because he sees the bullshit and calls it for what it is or whatever. That's seems to be an important part of how they create value. So I think the trade off here is they are creating, like I don't, to a certain extent, like Ben Thompson seems to evolve his point of view through writing. But I don't see him take a lot of risks in his writing with, like, well, I sort of speculatively think this, or I suspect this or I'm not quite sure, but I want to put this out there. If anything, Ben Thompson is very conservative about the idea that he would ever be wrong about anything. He seems it seems to mortify him. And

Liston Witherill
which is hilarious, since he writes four days a week.

Philip Morgan
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a missed opportunity for some humor or humanity or something. But that's okay. The point here is that it's a different trade off with this genre of the new surfer. They are, I think, subtly or overtly projecting, like this is an authoritative point of view that you can trust, you're not going to be wrong if you see the world this way. And if if I update my views, I'm going to find a way to kind of subtly slipstream that in somewhere down the road. So there, these folks are not doing a lot of developing feature expertise value in a really public visible way through their writing, they have some other way of doing it, which is fine. Again, all these are totally acceptable trade offs. The next genre is the world changer. So our friend Jonathan Stark, is on this list. Because the way he's using those three elements of value creation, is to advance a sort of mission that He has for making a difference in the world. He would. Sometimes I wonder, I should ask Jonathan this sometimes, what if he woke up tomorrow, and like the mission was accomplished, and no one used hourly billing anymore anywhere else in the world, like they'd all like overnight, then reprogrammed to convert to use value billing, like, what would he do next? And I'm pretty sure he would come up with something. And I think there might be like, a brief moment of like, Oh, my gosh, this is amazing. But I think for a while, the world changers, the enjoyment is actually in the work of changing the world. Anyway, go, I interrupted you listen, go ahead.

Liston Witherill
No, it's fine. I was gonna say, I think Jonathan would tell you where we're not in no danger of this mission ever being achieved. Yeah. But you know, I would put forth the example of the March of Dimes to you, I don't know if you know, the history of the March of Dimes, which is a really no nonprofit organization. And the where the name comes from is, you would do, you know, donate a dime, at the supermarket or whatever, in order to help cure polio. Okay, and of course, polio was cured A long time ago. But the March of Dimes still exists. And so they just sort of adopted other, you know, ailments and diseases that affect children as their future mission, I think. I guess it depends on how grandiose your vision is to write. So if your vision was if your back in the context of March of Dimes, if your vision is to end all, all sickness for children, that'll never be achieved, right? It'll never be eradicated, there will be some children who are still sick. Whereas if it were much more specific, there's a higher likelihood, I think of Jonathan's mission as being pretty specific, but not achievable. for lots of really good rational reasons, which, which isn't to say, he doesn't have a point he does. I don't bill hourly, and neither do you. But, you know, there are a lot of people who will still bill bill hourly, whereas Seth Godin has, I'd say, a little bit more of a vague a morphus grandiose thing that he wants to accomplish, which is I'd summarize, actually, how would you summarize what is Seth on a mission to do?

Philip Morgan
Well, I've never asked him I don't know him personally. And I'm not sure I've ever seen like a one or two have sort of a memorable one or two sentence. But I would characterize what he's doing is he's trying to support and empower people who want to have an impact on the culture, and he wants to help them like his definition of marketing is quite effective. To answer it is changing the culture that says that culture change. Yeah. So when I say it's a little bit of a circular thing to say he wants them to help them understand how to use marketing to change the culture, that's a circular thing, because I'm saying he wants to help them understand how to change the culture using this change the tools of culture change, which are marketing. So anyway, that's the best I can do right now. Not very good. What would you say? For some,

Liston Witherill
I would say there's also a sort of Manichean good versus evil kind of thing of like, using marketing for the ends of good and for progress. And for human like for people to thrive. I think that's kind of an inescapable part of his message and part of why he's so popular, right? Because who doesn't want to win a little good versus evil game? So

Philip Morgan
an interesting thing about Seth again, I don't know him. But I've listened to him be interviewed on a lot of podcasts. And, and he said multiple times something something, something I wanted the internet lottery. Yeah. And to me, that's code for actually don't have enough money that I don't need to work or have a successful business to be okay. For the rest of my right. Right. And so I wonder if that has something to do with the somewhat larger, more diffuse nature of his mission?

Liston Witherill
Yeah. Which begs a question. Or maybe, I don't know if you're saying this, but it seems to me you might be implying, the mission became more grandiose over time, as he sort of checked the boxes of like, you know, I sell, I can make a living on my back catalogue of books. I don't actually need anything new to happen, ever. Or, in fact, I've heard from his booking agency, how much he makes for a keynote. And I can tell you, for sure he can support his entire family on one talk a year. Right? So

Philip Morgan
yeah, I hope folks listening don't think any of this is like any kind of criticism, it's just saying that the context that you're in, in your business, and what you're trying to do with your business really shapes how you might end up using email marketing. And if you can play something like a longer game, like, you know, folks like Seth Godin certainly are, then I think you can get away from this, a meet needing to immediately monetize like an email list or create immediate monetary value with an email list.

Liston Witherill
One, I think, also with world changers, as you said, their main motivation is to see a change in the world. Now, I would argue that maybe we should invite Jonathan on here to actually talk about this. But I would argue that that's probably not his main motivation, his main motivation is to market a business that makes money for him. And he also happens to have sort of a large vision for the way the world should be in those things can work together, and they do in his case, whereas other people will write just because they think it's the right thing to do, you know, and may not have business value associated with it. But I do think that having this this normative, like, you know, the world should be a better place kind of approach. That's definitely part of Scott, that's a big part of Scott Galloway, his message is like, these tech companies are fucking evil, and like we should, we should at least know what they're doing. And be honest about it at a minimum, you know, I think that kind of thing brings a lot more attention and reader interest in what you're doing.

Philip Morgan
Yeah. And when I propose these three forms of value creation, I see them as sometimes as a Venn diagram where you can kind of overlap all three of them. And sometimes their intention, and they're kind of fighting against each other. And so, you know, to be clear, the function of presenting these examples is really to show how many different nuanced and fascinating ways you can trade them off against each other. And, and also to point out like, there's not just one formula that works for everybody. That's another thing that I try to take pains to point out is, there's not just one formula and your formative experience of encountering some email list that you just loved, may not be the right formula for you, or it may not be the right trade off of those three things. There's two other sub genres here. We've talked about the news surfer. You know, folks like Scott Galloway, Ben Thompson, talked about the world changer, Jonathan Stark, Seth Godin have talked about the ultimate curator, czar, Tyler Callen. So there's the teacher. And I think that was that was my formative experience with like, an email list was Being on Patrick Mackenzie's email list. And, you know, just like every few months, you couldn't predict when this gift would show up in your inbox, and you've described it as a 14,000. Word, email, it was always, I always felt like, I just got a free book. And it was aligned with my interests at the time, which was, I was like, really into the idea of like conversion rate optimization,

Liston Witherill
Oh, I thought you're gonna say bingo cards.

Philip Morgan
And, like, that's a joke, we won't have time to explain it out the door here in the next few minutes. And, you know, he was this teaching teacher of like, I've learned these things, running my little small software businesses, figuring out CRM, and email marketing and stuff like that. And I'm going to package those up in this beautiful free email that is very long, and really is like a free book. And I'm going to send it to my email list. And I'm going to create reader value that way. And I'm going to create short term monetary value for my email list by demonstrating that I know this stuff. Yeah. And I am going to create long term expertise value in a completely different way. It's not by emailing my list. I mean, maybe I'll get a little more clear now and pretending like I'm Patrick McKenzie. Maybe I'll get a little more clear by organizing my thinking in a way that is suitable for email consumption. And that will have long term expertise value, but really, the laboratory for cultivating that expertise is not the email list, it's somewhere else. So folks like Christopher Nandi, who runs a daily tips list for folks who want to learn how to write vanilla JavaScript is a great example. Eric Davis runs a list of tips for Shopify store owners, Carl secas doesn't publish as frequently but he's about once or twice a week for agency folks. And then also in that category at various publication frequencies are David C. Baker, and Blair ends. They are all I think, operating under this sort of sub genre of the teacher. I've learned some stuff in my client work, I'm packaging it up, and making it available to you. You were about to say something. Listen,

Liston Witherill
one thing that's interesting about this category is I feel like you use the example of Patrick McKenzie at the top. Yeah, it was like you just never knew, like, it didn't even seem like there was a business purpose for it other than some sort of long term personal branding thing, which seems to have landed him some dream gig with stripe. But it the frequency can be is sort of all over the place, with people in this category. Whereas all of the other categories we've covered, they tend to be a very predictable and reliable frequency every day, every week, day, once a week, whatever it is. But in this category, it seems to be a little bit spottier.

Philip Morgan
There's more diversity, I would say I mean, Eric Davis, Christopher Nabi, they're they're lockstep on a on a five day, a week schedule. And Carl Sagan, I'm pretty sure is on a lockstep schedule. But he is, I would guess that part of what you're talking about is particularly the example of Patrick McKenzie. And I suspect, Blair and David, the emailing is driven by stuff that's happening in the client services side of their business. Yeah. Where it's later, you beat me to the punch line. Sorry,

Liston Witherill
I don't know, I agree with you, right. And I think if you're coming from the position of a teacher, so with Carl, for instance, he does a new article once a week, and he does an old article once a week, okay. And he has so much content now, that like he's confident if I send you an old article, the likelihood that you've seen it is very low. And so that's his process. But I was also thinking of another example, which is a completely different approach to frequency, which is friend of the show, Tom Miller. And so Tom's work with small batch standard. They're also in the teacher category, and they come from a position of, we know a bunch of stuff about the operational and financial side of running a craft brewery is the purpose of their newsletter, and they go in terms of campaigns, so they'll not email hardly at all sometimes for months, or just stretches at least. And then you'll get an email every day for two or three weeks. And that's their approach to it where there's their thinking like, you know, that has the sort of short term monetary value by Instead of driving sales pipeline, but it also gives you a more of a full experience on a topic, we're going to address a topic 500 words at a time for the next 10 days, right. And by the end of it, like you're going to know a lot more than you knew before, and you're gonna have a lot to think about. So there is something about this category that I think gives permission to the teacher to not email quite as frequently, or at least not on a 100% ironclad schedule, even though some people we mentioned still do that.

Philip Morgan
Yeah, for sure. That's a great observation. last shot sub genre here, we've called the student slash philosopher, I put myself in that category, you've put your friend Jason Bay in that category, I think you mentioned you feel like he kind of fit there to where, again, talking about this. Yeah, sometimes, those three things you can be doing to create value. I am much more willing, also speak for myself. I'm not subscribed to Jason baseless, I don't know. But I'm much more willing to

Liston Witherill
focus on the long term expertise value, through the publishing and work much closer to the bleeding edge of what I do and don't know. And at some point, that was just like kind of how I did it. And then it became a conscious choice. And now it's, it's something I advocate that people use, intentionally if it's a good fit for them. So if their business is sort of reasonably stable to the point where they don't need to use the email marketing to attract short term monetary value, or that pressure is lower than I think what you can do is use frequent regular publication as a way to both create reader value and work on your own expertise and surface opportunities for innovation. So I'll just quickly say like, that's how I'm using it. Jason, I don't know. Can you give some comments on how you see him using email marketing? Well, so I think the most obvious form of the way Jason's using it is on his podcast. And so he'll, his business is blissful prospecting. And he gives advice on prospecting, as you might imagine, and on the podcast, he'll interview people who do prospecting professionally. And he'll ask them to reveal tactics about what they're doing. And then his role, often when he shares content, not always, sometimes he's the teacher, do this, do that. Don't do this, don't do that kind of stuff. But other times, he'll also be in the position of saying, I learned this thing. And I think it's really interesting. And you might be able to apply it to. There's a guy named Nathan, something the guy who did the startup interviews, Philip, do you remember

me along Nathan startup interviews, and he interviewed a Nathan latka. He has a podcast called the top, which has some weird connotations to it. And his his approach on the podcast was he'd have startup founders who are private, and don't reveal any information about their metrics. And he would ask them, these really direct questions, how much money do you have? What is your acquisition cost? What are your conversion rates like, but he had a standard list of questions. And he built a database of private benchmarks for startups, and then use that as a marketing asset. And so none of this, I mean, if you go to his YouTube channel, like he's very much like the teacher there, where he's promising a bunch of kids how to get rich, feel free to send your hate mail to me, Nathan or argue with me, but that is what you're doing. And yet on the podcast, it's a very different orientation, where it's all about him being there as the student to learn from the the sort of teacher, the Wise sage. So I think there's lots of different examples of this. And in fact, this is a good method. If you're willing to create content that stars your target market or your ideal clients, feature them, share what you learn from them, which is also a form of flattery in addition to having value to an audience. And it also gives you insight and new relationships that matter.

Philip Morgan
So there you go, the new surfer, the world changer, the ultimate curator, the teacher, the student, philosopher. These are all different trade offs of these three ways of creating value for I mean, we went beyond him. Mail marketing, because really, it's sort of any way of publishing. There's, and any approach that you take is your answer to the question, How do I create reader subscriber value because if you don't, you're not going to have an audience for long. I mean, your mom will always be a part of your audience, your wife, your husband, your partner, whatever. If they're, you know, subscribed to your email list, they'll probably stick around even if there's not much value for them. But you have to answer that question, how do I create value for my readers and subscribers? How do I create short term monetary value for my business? And maybe you won't, through the publication? Maybe you'll do that some other way? Or maybe you will? And how will I create long term long term expertise value? those last two, that's where the real sort of shifting trade offs happens. You have to create reader subscriber value Somehow, I think that's a given. But those other two you might balance them differently, and end up with a really different approach as a result to how you're doing publishing. This one went long. I gotta go pick up some stuff before the store closes. Listen, it was great to talk to you, my man. Thank you for your contributions today. Same here by Philip. Bye

Philip Morgan