What happens when trust declines?

(Philip here) This was a fun one! It's music to my ears to hear Liston say "I think you're right about that", and he said this a lot in this episode. I'm kidding a little bit, but it really was an interesting episode. We started out by acknowledging the decline in trust in institutions, but quickly started to explore the implications for us:

  • Are content marketers partially to blame for this decline? After all, implicit in the publishing we do is the claim: "Trust us -- the little guy -- on this! You don't need those big slow-moving out-of-date institutions to help you, we've got you covered!"
  • What role does The Great Fragmenter, social media, play in this decline?
  • Does the world have a somewhat fixed amount of trust that it deploys wherever it can, and now that less of this "trust reservoir" is flowing to institutions, does that mean that more of it can flow to us?
  • How do we earn new trust in a world where institutions have less trust to transfer us?

This was a fun, interesting reflection on one of the big trends that Liston and I both see effecting indie experts in 2021 and beyond.

Full Transcript


This transcript was made by robots, so it's far from perfect.

Liston Witherill
Welcome to offline, a podcast about building a 100% online and remote expertise driven business without the bullshit, posted remotely by me, Liston Witherill.

Philip Morgan
And me, Philip Morgan. You'll learn how we're building our businesses, what scares the shit out of it, and hear from our friends and experts who are building their own businesses to welcome to offline.

Liston Witherill
Philip Morgan,

Philip Morgan
Liston Witherill.

Liston Witherill
back at it another episode of offline, how are you today? My friend?

Philip Morgan
You disgust me?

Liston Witherill
Obviously, I do. So we were just talking about the emotion of disgust. I was listening to a Freakonomics episode about that. And I introduced you to recycled sewage water as a method of providing safe drinking water. What a way to start the offline podcast?

Philip Morgan
Indeed, I have no idea where to take that.

Liston Witherill
Well, actually, let me do the segue. So one thing you need to know about recycled sewage water, is it's totally okay to drink. And the only way you could actually believe that is if you trusted me. And in fact, that seems to be one of the difficulties is people are less trusting of experts in institutions, which is the next trend that we want to cover for 2021. One of the big trends in all of marketing sales, and it's going to affect every business, people are less trusting. And because we're in expertise and authority based businesses, that turns out to be a pretty big problem. How'd I do on my segway?

Philip Morgan
That was genius, I was gonna say the other way that a person could know that drinking, what used to be sewage water. Yeah. But the other way they can know that safe is if they understood the mechanics of how it happens. Or it basically, if they had that level of expert knowledge themselves, there does seem to be this chasm in the middle between, you know, I'm right, because I'm describing a phenomenon that you also understand as an expert. And then on the far end of it, my favorite line from the TV series 24, with Kiefer Sutherland playing this character, jack Bauer, is here, let me turn down the gain on my preamp a little bit. You're just gonna have to trust me?

Liston Witherill
Well, I think there's another way,

Philip Morgan
how many times did he say that in the course of that talented like twice, or three times per episode of at least the first season? That's the only season I saw?

Liston Witherill
Well, I was gonna say there's another way that you can get someone to trust you as you can let them watch you drink it. Right. So maybe partially, that's the answer. We emphasize social proof a lot as a way to convey trust. And we've talked about it before on the podcast, but maybe that is one of the key elements here.

Philip Morgan
I think of social proof as I mean, yeah, that would be a form of social proof. I think of it of course, in terms of marketing, my own services, the social proof is, yeah, I worked with Philip. And it was great. I did this, I bought this product, took this workshop, whatever. And it was good. I think of that being social proof. But you're right. If you can see someone do something that you think is dangerous, and it's not dangerous, that would be a form of social proof as well.

Liston Witherill
Right? Well, what I was thinking is in the case of not to dwell on this water example.

Philip Morgan
But in a contest the whole episode, right?

Liston Witherill
In the case of that, right it, there's proof in me drinking the water, assuming you believe that it is the former sewage that I'm drinking, right. So what I'm saying is, if you make a claim about positioning, and you could tell a story about someone who did it, or you can say specifically how it helps your business that may instill trust, but let's talk about this idea of trust generally. So I've brought up Gallup so if you type in Google confidence in institutions, Gallup, you'll find exactly what I'm looking at. And all across the board. People are less trusting of major societal institutions and these are in the US. Here's a startling one. great deal or quite a lot of trust in Congress. 1973 42% of people agreed with that. 2020 13% organized labor people don't trust very much. Overall, big business people are less trusting of only slightly way less trusting in the church. Public Schools trust is down from 58 to 41. These are people who say they trust it a great deal or quite a lot. The media down from 39% to 24%. So you get the idea, I'm not going to rattle off all of these numbers, the one area where trust seems to have substantially increased whether it's deserved or not. Is the military 58% trusted a great deal are quite a lot in 1975. In 2020, it's 72%. I'm guessing the Vietnam War in the timing of 1975 had something to do with that.

Philip Morgan
Do they have Instagram influencers?

Liston Witherill
Trust is on the rise for Instagram influencers? Yeah, you know, I, I find it interesting. here's a, here's the last one that I'll say the medical system 80% trusted at a great deal, or quite a lot in 1975 51% today, so I just want to this hits exactly what you were saying. People go to Instagram or Facebook to learn, sort of like, what they should know about the world. And yet, they don't trust people who are trained for 12 or however many years, 20 years to be medical doctors are they trust them? It less and less. So it's quite, it's quite interesting, where this is coming from.

Philip Morgan
So a couple of questions for you. institutions are at the core of this, this measurement, trust in institutions. Yeah. New institutions arise to replace or maybe to come alongside or replace old institutions. Do you think that plays into this where maybe we could think of social media as an institution? I might be stretching the ideal. But I want to throw that out there are there. I mean, I was only really half joking about Instagram influencers, right? Like, yeah, people who trust Gwyneth Paltrow for health advice. Yeah. So

Liston Witherill
she lost the lawsuit about that.

Philip Morgan
Go ahead. And there's people I'm sure who still trust her Yes. After that, indeed. Right. Right. eagled the institution of the legal system does not interfere with their willingness or ability to trust her. So are there new institutions that we should be thinking about that are like, Is there a certain amount of trust, sitting in a big reservoir somewhere? It's got to go somewhere. It's now being channeled into new institutions? That's my first question for you.

Liston Witherill
Well, I think so. The answer to that last question is clearly Yes. Because we have a desire to learn about our world, create meaning, and most of us have a desire to improve ourselves, right. And given how complicated the world is, we need to rely on other people who have figured stuff out. It's complete, like from a pure cost benefit analysis point of view, it's totally inefficient to do everything from scratch, right? So like, if you were going to make a wooden table for the first time, probably look up an article or ask someone or go to Home Depot. Like there's a variety of ways you can learn about it. But you would rely on some expertise somewhere, I think you bring up a really good point about social media itself replacing the institution, because when you ask, you know, this is maybe the scariest thing we've talked about. If you ask Americans where they get their news from, they say Facebook, which of course Facebook doesn't create any content. So that maybe that illustrates your point. I don't know if I'm on track here or not?

Philip Morgan
Well, I mean, it's less of a point really, and more of a question. One of the things that, that leads me to think about when I think about maybe, let's just assume there is this, like, more or less fixed amount of trust potential in the world, right, like people want, like trust is not what's diminishing, it's where it's flowing, or where it's being pointed to or how it's being deployed. Right? Let's just assume that for this thought experiment. Maybe it is this kind of weird reversion away from centralized institutions, and towards what SOCIAL MEDIA presents as just our friends, people, we know people we like, right, like, that's what social media is presenting. We're setting aside the whole algorithmic part of it. But maybe it's a reconfiguration of who we looked to, for the kind of answers that we would have looked to institutions for. Yeah. And again, I'm not making a point because this is not something I'm convinced of. I'm just, I'm just wondering, is that what's happening because that seems not so much like a negative for the indie experts out there for folks like us. What do you think?

Liston Witherill
Well, I think it's the double edge sort of democratizing content and publishing, right? On the one hand, it's great because you can for very little money or even no money, like you could go sign up for medium or Twitter. And you could build a giant audience, as we've thoroughly beat to death on this podcast before the likelihood that that will happen is very low. But it's possible, right? Probably more likely than winning the lottery. I'm in fact, I'm sure it's more likely than that, but less likely than lots of other things that you care about. So I think you're right. And I don't think it's, well, I do think that people losing trust in institutions is a bad thing. Generally, we won't get into politics here, but just sort of from a civic engagement point of view. As you pointed out, rightly, I think, if someone doesn't trust something over here, they're going to have to replace it with something over there. And the problem is, people don't seem to have good tools about how to evaluate the trustworthiness of someone or something. Now, one of the challenges that we face as experts is, there's no certification in digital marketing, or, you know, for you, there's no certification and being a positioning expert for independent software developers, like who could even say what those qualifications are.

Philip Morgan
Right? It's,

Liston Witherill
it's seemingly not impossible, but quite difficult to say what they are in the abstract. It's sort of an all know it when I see it kind of thing. And I think given that a lot of people are less trustworthy in general, of all of the different experts out there, that that they could be paying attention to, I think this does create a little bit of a difficult situation for those of us who are experts, but are lacking authority and being, you know, somewhat known, at least by a niche audience. And I think that trend will only continue to accelerate we've talked about before, this idea of, I think, it's your quote, I don't know if you got it somewhere, but the internet is really good at creating an oversupply of everything. So that's definitely working against us also. There's way too much stuff out there. And then it becomes harder and harder to figure out. What's the good stuff? Because in some ways, the overhead of deciding is borne out by the consumer of that information. And that's unfair.

Philip Morgan
Yeah, there's some really interesting points in there. I get to for the second time today, Listen, do a pop quiz. You ready? I was earlier today, being interviewed. And we touched on the same topic. So attorneys, how long have has the profession of being a lawyer, the legal profession existed? In some kind of recognized formal sense? What's your what's your guess? you estimate

Liston Witherill
by a formal sense, meaning there's a like a bar exam type certification,

Philip Morgan
let's think more primitive versions of that, like recognized by the rulers of whatever the society are?

Liston Witherill
Well, you would need to have a society of laws, not men, in order for attorneys to matter. So I would guess, post enlightenment, three 400 years? Okay.

Philip Morgan
I'll reveal the answers in a minute. How long is the profession of management consulting? Been around? Yeah,

Liston Witherill
well, that probably depends on your definition. I would guess since factories, the 1920s.

Philip Morgan
Okay, really close on the second one, I think 1880 is around the first mention of the idea that you would apply something like, you know, the scientific version of science that existed then to the practice of running a business.

Liston Witherill
Yeah. So and it was all around efficiency, worker efficiency, probably in the beginning. Yeah. But

Philip Morgan
that was really the origins of management consulting, and the legal profession has been around for about 2000 years in some recognized way. Since, you know, somewhere in Greece or Rome, you had some recognition that that was a like a okay profession.

Liston Witherill
Because there was a democracy. They're

Philip Morgan
very embryonic forms, right of these professions, but still, there's this huge difference and so between the lines Since professionals, I just use attorneys as an example. I think physicians would go back further than that, or people who were, you know, trying to help the sick get well, right, would go back even further than that. And the licensed professions have institutions that they operate within. And then you and I, like you were saying, you know, we're just, we're not making shit up, we're really trying to figure something out. But there is no institutional context that we operate within. We're independent, we work for ourselves, and there's no standards or licensing body that we answer to other than just the, you know, basic liability stuff, like don't get somebody killed or don't right, you know, cause massive harm to someone. But I mean, aside from that, we are unfettered. So when I think about how the landscape of trust is changing for institutions, I think it's important to this distinguish between the sort of, you know, existing institutions, and then this wild west that we operate within, maybe it's advantageous to us. One of the things I heard in, in what you were saying earlier, is this idea that you can't, is it fair to say this, like the decline in trust looks like people saying, I can't just count on on those guys, those people for answers. And those people are sort of placeholder for the institutions that are on the receiving end of the declining amount of trust. So what we'll do instead, they ask their friends, or do they feel like they're doing their own research? And has content marketing, contribute? content marketing, let's say amplified by the internet and social media? Has it contributed to this idea that you should do your own research?

Liston Witherill
Well, now we're getting into something that I care a lot about, but it's typically not something we talked about on offline, which is this core question of how do we know anything? And I don't mean to get too philosophical here, but I think it is relevant. Bring it lay it on us. We're ready. Well, so to your question, if they're skeptical of institutions, that skepticism, or that distrust indicates that that institution has something to say about the world, or how you should live your life that's important to the person, right. Otherwise, why would they even bother deciding if they trust them? Or distrust them?

Philip Morgan
Yeah, in the viral pandemic, that's still happening. You know, the question of like, how do I avoid getting this virus? Do I even believe that there's a virus? That would be the the very correct example of what you're talking about?

Liston Witherill
Yeah. Can I trust a vaccine? How much do masks work? Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I mean, I think obviously, if we take the example of the pandemic, some people do their own research. And in the pandemic, specifically, my concern is people don't know how to do research and to evaluate the information that they're finding, which is a different concern than I have, in this idea of trust declining and small businesses like yours and mine. Different stakes, for sure. But yeah, I think people do go and do their own research, they go online. And this, you know, this is one of the questions that if I was starting a content marketing program from scratch, I would ask my ideal clients all over again, is, if you wanted to learn about this, where would you go? Who would you trust? Now? Why do you trust them? What How do you evaluate whether they know what they're talking about? Or not? What channels would you use? So like, would you go to Facebook? Or would you go to YouTube? Those kinds of things matter? So yeah, it seems to me that you're totally right. People don't do go and do their own research. And generally, it also seems that in terms of people accepting what they find, it's seems to be primarily driven by confirmation bias, right, whatever they already believe about the topic. That's going to be the research that resonates with them. And that's going to be what they use to support their opinion about what to trust.

Philip Morgan
It's just really funny to me, to imagine that in some perverse way, content marketing has contributed somehow to this decline. I mean, it's again, it's a little shitty for me to get any pleasure at all from that, but it's just it would kind of be what we content marketers deserve. Yeah, for that to be the culmination. I'm over simplifying. Here's a question Listen, okay. We're in the world of the unlicensed professions, our institutions, we do have pseudo institutions. I'm not talking about things like medicine, the press, government, the legal profession. But here's a question if you had an opportunity to be on a stage at dreamforce, and I want you to explain in a moment with dreamforce, listeners who don't know, most will know, but some may not. If you had an opportunity to be on the stage at dreamforce, do you think the value of that would be diminished by this decline in trust that we both agree is happening? Or maybe it's more accurately a reconfiguration? And how, how trust works? Either way? How would you assess that opportunity?

Liston Witherill
Would there be a decline? And so your your question is, okay, so first of all, what is dreamforce? dreamforce? Is the annual conference that Salesforce puts on for both, then for for inclusive of vendors, users, consultants, their whole orbit of all the different people who are Salesforce interested, right people who build on their platform. And so is your question. Would there be less impact today than at some point in the past? If I were to speak on stage?

Philip Morgan
Yeah, it's an oblique way of getting at that it's a way of saying, part of whatever value you would get from being on the stage sales at dreamforce. Sorry, comes from this kind of, but it comes from trust, right? Well, it comes

Liston Witherill
from the transitive principle, right? If I'm on stage at dreamforce, they would probably only put good people on stage. Therefore, I must know what I'm talking about. That's typically how trust is conveyed?

Philip Morgan
Yeah, so let's say that, you know, the value of you being onstage at dreamforce is at least a part of it is trust in, in Salesforce, or people who put together the event for Salesforce as a curator. Yeah, we're gonna pick the best, smartest, most inspirational people and invite them to be on stage here. Right? Do you think that the kind of interest that I'm talking about in pseudo institutions like Salesforce and the events and their events program is declining as well? Or do you think that's staying the same? Do you think that's getting any different? What do you see?

Liston Witherill
That's a great question, because my initial reaction is me being on stage at dreamforce. First of all, it's still hard, right? So there's the scarcity of the number of speakers that they can have there. That's, that's one of the things, one of the reasons that would indicate, speakers are more likely to be trustworthy. The second thing is, they probably have some level of standards internally. I mean, it's not going to rise to the level of passing the bar, obviously. But there will be some standards for who they learn on stage, you got to know someone who knows someone or something like that, you know, there's no doubt that being on stage as a speaker at dreamforce, would be more meaningful than me writing a blog post on medium and sending it out to a bunch of people, on average, right? So yeah, maybe what I'm getting at is there seems to be a uniformly declining level of trust across all channels. So dreamforce will still be more meaningful than other places where I can go try to build trust today. But relative to a speaking engagement 20 years ago, let's let's put dreamforce actually, in the same bucket as content marketing, right? I don't know for sure. But my guess is there's more business events today than there were 20 or 30 years ago, there are more opportunities to go to conferences. Do you agree with that premise?

Philip Morgan
Without having measured it? I just would say intuitively, for sure, yeah.

Liston Witherill
Right. Yeah. If if for no other reason, the population of the world is bigger, and there's more wealth in the world. So chances are, there's going to be more conferences, where there's money to be made. There'll be conferences,

Philip Morgan
there's a lot of business travel, not all of that is for boring meetings in beige conference rooms,

Liston Witherill
right. So I think it stands to reason then that there's more speaking slots in aggregate, and therefore the quality of your average speaker will probably be less. And I think there's lots of things that contributed to this long before content marketing, right. So just the very rise of public relations or media relations as a dedicated enterprise has to have some contribution to the declining level of trust where people know you know Philip may only be on here because he hasn't good PR representative who knew the conference planner?

Philip Morgan
I did this little piece of work called trust velocity some years ago? Oh, yes,

Liston Witherill
it's great. By the way,

Philip Morgan
thank you, you can still go to trust velocity.com and get redirected to a page on my website. This was me trying to think about this, this question like how is trust built, and it was combining two ideas. One is, you know, you can do things that result in someone becoming a lead, they're interested in your services. And you can do a lot of things that do that. You can run ads on Facebook, you can have, you know, a quiz on your website, you can have a pop up popped in, you know, there's a lot of ways to generate leads. And I was curious about this, did some research and compiled a list of 40 some ways of generating leads, some of which are not even relevant to services, businesses, but some of which are. And then I started thinking, Well, you know, some of these are going to generate a lead, but are going to accrue no trust at all. While that lead generation is happening, and and others could generate significant amounts of trust. One of the, you know, groupings I noticed is that anything that uses your voice seems to have this kind of edge in cultivating trust. Anything that where you get up on stage, and there's a risk of you embarrassing yourself. Anything that's live seems to have an edge? Because I don't know, maybe you have some insight into why. But there's just something about that group of activities that makes it possible for us to more quickly come to trust someone. And there was an item on there that I ranked pretty highly in its trust potential, which is being mentioned, or quoted, or interviewed. in mainstream press. Yeah. Our mutual friend of ours, David Baker, has a great book, the business of expertise and mutual acquaintance of his Carl Richards wrote an article about it in the New York Times. Yeah. And that became David's sort of headline, social proof. Right? And it would have been mind to, okay, I'm not this is not a criticism of anything. Today, I would rank press mentions lower in their ability to generate trust for the reasons I think you're talking about. Uh huh. And also, I just, you know, I noticed anytime someone comments on Oh, yeah, you know, we got this piece of press, and it did this for us. And when they say this, they usually are referencing some very unimpressive level of business results, it just doesn't seem to move the needle in any kind of short term meaningful way. Yeah. Now, if a book I wrote got reviewed positively, or mentioned positively in any way, honestly, even if the New York Times hated it, I still would probably find a way to use it by marketing, just to say that the work I'm doing rose to the level of being noticed, yeah, by an institution like the New York Times. But just the general idea that press or the endorsement of a big kind of traditional institution is going to help you. I think I have downgraded that a little bit recently. So I agree with the overall premise, that there's just less of the pool of trust that's out there being routed to big traditional institutions. And I think it might be our fault, the outsiders, that people who are internet natives, I think it's partially our fault. I mean, it's also certainly partially Mark Zuckerberg fault as well. He has some responsibility in this. Yeah. But it's interesting to, you know, to kind of think about how that might change things. I don't know that it changes things a lot for you. And I, I don't think you and I were like laying awake at night, wondering when the New York Times is going to write about our work?

Liston Witherill
Well, I think there's a couple. So I'd like to now maybe turn to the implications and maybe what people can do, so that we're not such Debbie downers this whole time. Wow. My aunt's name is Debbie. I wonder how she feels about that phrase. So one of the things that occurs to me is if you can align yourself with people that already have more trust in your market than you do, that's probably a good shortcut. Go ahead.

Philip Morgan
You're laughing, the Instagram, that sort of Instagram influencers of your market, they it's not that they would be on Instagram or be thought of as influencers. But in a way, can I describe what you're saying as they have built up a sort of platform and they are sort of micro institutions in there in the market that you're also in Is that fair to say?

Liston Witherill
Well, yeah, and like both of us, right? So like people, I hear from people on a pretty regular basis, who discovered me through you. And then they found this podcast. And they're like, oh, who's this listing guy, and then they sign up, right. And that's a pretty normal pathway for people to come to know me, or one of many. Right? So that would be one example. Or, you know, you go on Jonathan sparks podcast, or you have David C. Blair, on your podcast, you don't even need to be on his. But the fact that David would come onto your show means something to some people. So I think this idea of being in the right circles matters a lot, especially if you can do that publicly.

Philip Morgan
Yeah, I've been thinking in a way that is not at all ready to share about open and closed systems in the world of business. And I was diagramming some of this largely for myself. And there was this kind of persistent idea, that is exactly what you just described. And I needed a way to talk about it. And I called it an opportunity network, where it's sort of like, you see this happen, you know, these like minded people kind of find each other. And then they start trying to create more opportunity for each other, by simply helping each other, you see that happen. And I think it's really one of the cool things that we can do outside of the world of the licensed professions. Not that it would be totally inhibited in that world, but it's just, that looks more like just kind of a boring formal referral relationship. But I think in our world, it's a little more richly nuanced.

Liston Witherill
I agree with that. So that that would be one of the things that I would think about is aligning yourself with other people who have trust. And then one thing You talk a lot about Philip, and I think is a good way to overcome overcome this trust barrier, is doing original research. So essentially, the the mechanism that is trust building there is you can say, Don't believe me, right? Look at this data, look at this thing that you can verify on your own and come to your own conclusions about here's what I think about it. But I think research can also be a really powerful way to do this.

Philip Morgan
Yeah, that leads into something that we should table for now, which is I'll just briefly say, we're in this unlicensed profession. A lot of us. Me at points in the past, you're just making shit up. Yeah. I mean, let's just be honest, we're just making shit up.

Liston Witherill
I think you're,

Philip Morgan
well hold on, hold on, we aspire to do better. We're moving towards better. I think I'm doing better now. But when we start out, we're kind of just making shit up.

Liston Witherill
I think you're shortchanging yourself, though. Let me just characterize the way I probably approached what I'm doing now, when I first started, which was the way I approach everything, which is learn as much as I can about the subject, learn what the best practices are, and what the current thought leaders are saying about it. Decide what feels good to me about that. And also where I think things are changing and moving, and then repackage that in my own way. So the only reason I'm challenging you on the making shit up thing is, I think you are very much shortchanging yourself, and you're leading with a story that isn't fully true. You didn't literally just sit down with a blank page and go, I'm going to come up with something I heard about this positioning thing. It seems interesting. I'm just gonna make up a new program. That was not your approach.

Philip Morgan
It kind of was Listen,

Liston Witherill
no, no. You didn't know anything about positioning prior to doing that.

Philip Morgan
I had read al Reese's jack trout book, okay, which doesn't have any evidence to support it in the world of products. And then I, I translated it to a world where it actually does work. Anyway, there's more there. And being a little bit provocative. You're right to call me on that listing. But I mean, the world of marketing, come on, how many how much of that shit is just made up? A lot of it? Yeah,

Liston Witherill
I would think so.

Philip Morgan
So if that's the norm, you can differentiate yourself by saying I have made a good faith effort. Within my means. I'm not a professional researcher. I'm not an academic. I'm not a scientist. But I have made a good faith effort within my means to try to counterbalance the this is what's worked from an experiential perspective with this is some data. Again, we're not applying, you know, huge amounts of rigor to it. But we're trying to do better than just, this is what worked in the past for some people I know, which is really where most of the advice comes from, or this is a survey of, you know, best practices out there. How many of those people were just making shit up? We don't know. Right? We right was it, we have to trust them or not? Anyway, that's a whole other conversation. But you're right, we can, we can try to balance out where we're coming from with some data to become more objective or create solutions that fail less frequently,

Liston Witherill
right, which can be your own data, or it could be third party data that's synthesized, and then you can arrive at your own conclusions about, of course, original data is much more defensible, because you're the only person who has it, and who can, who created it. And then the last thing, I think is worth mentioning here is repetition. So there's a little bit of chicken or the egg problem when it comes to trust, which is like, or especially when it comes to this repetition idea. In order to get people to hear you repeatedly, to some degree, they have to trust you a little bit already, which hopefully, I gave you some ideas on how you can do that already. But the more they hear from you, the more they'll they'll start to have that confirmation bias, which of course, is a cognitive bias and can have negative connotations. But they'll continue to believe the story that they're investing their time well, and therefore, you know, what you're talking about, if you can show up in a repeated way, which comes from things like this podcast, or other sources of content that you can create and produce on a regular basis.

Philip Morgan
It goes beyond that, I think you're right. And it goes beyond that to what I call being present with a market. And that's one of the ways I characterize brand marketing and differentiated from direct response marketing. In direct response, marketing, generally, the idea of any sort of investment that's not measurable, that doesn't pay off pretty quickly is scrutinized, if not rejected. With brand marketing, you might embrace this idea of being present with the market in ways that are unmeasurable, that are a little bit like squishy and hard to define, but might be best described as just showing up. repeatedly, I think it has the same benefits you're talking about for generating trust without relying on institutions. You have a colleague who runs a marketing agency makes a lot more money than I do. His main Legion method is this is just showing up at events that are populated, you know, I don't like the idea of, you know, you're going to Spearfish, your clients. But it's the idea of a stocked pond, right. he selects events that are full of the kind of people who make good clients for him. He buys a ticket at his own expense and goes there and shows up and is never onstage, and it's just in the audience interacting with people. He's being present with them. He's listening to them. He's building relationships. And he does so repeatedly. Well, you know, maybe the first time you meet this guy at one of these events, you're not impressed. Maybe you never meet him. He does work room pretty well, I'll say so he'll probably going to meet him if you're at these events. He favors small events, not dreamforce size stuff, right? But maybe the third time you're like, Well, you know, who's showed up every time that I've gone to this event, and therefore who's going to be the person I call to do this, this guy. So it's it's you know, putting yourself on stage or being on stage or getting yourself invited on stage, like you're talking about with a podcast or whatever. And it's also just being with the people that you're trying to connect and earn trust from. That works, too.

Liston Witherill
Yep. I think that's a good place to leave it. We should definitely pick up this idea of doing original research at some point. And it was a pleasure, Philip.

Philip Morgan
Likewise, see you next time.

Philip Morgan